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The Objects => Moon Zoo Object Collections => : The THING May 30, 2010, 05:02:49 PM

: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: The THING May 30, 2010, 05:02:49 PM
Oh my Gawwwwwddd, I searched for hours having this picture
(http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/uploads/LROCiotw/M119482862RE.L20M.ano.serendipityThumb.png)
to ensure myself that little black thing on left edge that I ignored several times  >:( >:( >:( actually IS Luna 20:
(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000172672.jpg)
ID: AMZ1001hp6
Latitude: 3.78897°
Longitude: 56.6256°
Sun Angle: -32.35°

Not impressive, but we now know that spacecraft can look like this too, especially on low contrast strips.

Now, I call everyone to find Luna 18!

It crashed only 1.3 km from the 20, but on LROC site they still not sure 'bout the coordinates. Lets together search some strips:
M104147428L
M108862844RE
M104147428LE
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: The THING May 30, 2010, 05:07:02 PM
I suppose Luna 18 can be this little white feature on 10 o'clock:
ID: AMZ1001i0x
Latitude: 3.7691°
Longitude: 56.6553°
(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000173095.jpg)
because LROC has coordinates 3.760, 56.655 but marked "not confirmed".

Google Moon says 3.57N, 56.5
Wiki says 3° 34' N, - 56° 30' E
Lets see  ;D
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: jules May 30, 2010, 10:44:08 PM
A challenge eh? ;)
I'll join the hunt when I have time!
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: DJ_59 May 31, 2010, 10:23:44 AM

Sounds like a fun distraction.  I'll take all of those I can get.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Thomas J May 31, 2010, 07:00:09 PM
Good work Thing.  :)
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: jules June 11, 2010, 07:36:27 PM
This strip is the one with the coordinates Lat 3.760 Lon 56.655 in.
M106504563RE  (http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc/view_lroc/LRO-L-LROC-2-EDR-V1.0/M106504563RE)   
Zoom in at the bottom and look out for a fresh very white impact bottom left about a sixth of the way up. What's that? I'm thinking it's too big for a spacecraft but it looks very fresh.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: The THING June 21, 2010, 06:23:52 PM
Yeah, looked through that strip. That thing looks interesting if you're talkin' 'bout this:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4304/jason----bourne.0/0_2933e_ad445849_L.jpg)
 
We must determine what we are actually going to see on Luna 18 crash site.
First, I suppose, fresh impact sites are white, are they? Second, the energy of impact was certainly unsufficient to form a crater and module wouldnt turn to dust, maybe some big parts in a pile of debris and with tracks like boulder tracks. But there could be an explosion, 'cause return module had some fuel, if I'm not mistaken. So that picture looks pretty like aftermath of an explosion - all these ray-like traces and no actual crater. What do you think, guys?
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: jules June 21, 2010, 06:46:07 PM
That's the one! Might try to find it with different illumination.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: jules June 21, 2010, 07:02:30 PM
Hmmm..It's also on strip M104147428RE (http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc/view_lroc/LRO-L-LROC-2-EDR-V1.0/M104147428RE) looking more like a crater. :-\
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Thomas J June 21, 2010, 09:09:54 PM
Well worth the second look, though, I would say.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Tom128 July 02, 2010, 01:45:52 AM
Hello Jules,

Better to be around the BBQ this weekend with friends than investigating photographs  :)

Moved some photographs over and added a couple more.

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000173052.jpg)

ID: AMZ1001hzq
Latitude: 3.48427°
Longitude: 56.6553°

Dark formation above and to the right of Luna 20 Thing posted above.

Another formation to the right of bright crater in same locale below.
(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000173194.jpg)

Here is another photograph of Luna 20 below. What is unclear is its orientation (inverted or not).

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000175205.jpg)

ID: AMZ1001jk9
Latitude: 3.78787°
Longitude: 56.6249°

All things being equal to the other photo strips of Luna 20, another dark formation is above and to the left of Luna 20 in top right corner of photo below.

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000175041.jpg)

ID: AMZ1001jfp
Latitude: 3.6437°
Longitude: 56.615°

Below is the crater that I believe you all were considering as a possible crash site for Luna 18 as well. In the photo strip it is below Luna 20.

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000175081.jpg)

ID: AMZ1001jgt
Latitude: 3.90583°
Longitude: 56.615

Quite a few targets to consider.














: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: jules July 02, 2010, 09:10:39 AM
Thanks Tom! :)
Will investigate later.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: jules July 02, 2010, 05:46:59 PM
This is a tough one! I found the object below on LROC strip M119482862RC (http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc/view_lroc/LRO-L-LROC-3-CDR-V1.0/M119482862RC). Probably a small fresh crater but it's at the right coordinates for Luna 18/20. There are others looking for the Luna craft. There's a good thread here (http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=6192&st=75) by people who are knowledgeable and who have found some good candidates. Phil Stooke seems to be very good at searching the LROC images and he is from the University of Western Ontario. That forum is worth a read for those interested in locating missing spacecraft.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Tom128 July 02, 2010, 09:02:29 PM
Hello Jules,

Thanks for the link to the thread. Very interesting.

My thought is that the particular lighting showing Luna 20 as a black object is our friend and most likely rules out Luna 18 being intact or we would have seen something similar on the photo strips on MZ for Luna 18. Wouldn't that have been nice! If Luna 18 broke up then the smaller dark formations may be a tell.

Not sure how to address the crater you found below Luna 20.  For better or worse, Wikipedia says Luna 18 was in lunar orbit at aprox. 62 nm before it began braking for its descent.  It weighed approximately 12, 346 lbs. It's signal was lost upon impact.  Its impact speed would be considerably less than the parking orbit of approximately 3600 mph (hope figures are close) depending upon the braking effect of the rockets. Not sure how far Luna 18 crashed from its desired landing site, which may give us some clues of its velocity at impact.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Tom128 July 03, 2010, 12:23:20 AM
(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000173678.jpg)

Level 3 zoom

Looking for dark formations and this comes shining up from the gloom.

ID: AMZ1001ih4
Latitude: 3.86845°
Longitude: 56.6948°

Using photo strip below that Thing originally posted:

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000172672.jpg)

ID: AMZ1001hp6
Latitude: 3.78897°
Longitude: 56.6256°

Target of interest is near lower right of strip and well below Luna 20.

: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Tom128 July 03, 2010, 04:13:12 AM
(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000255790.jpg)

Level 3 zoom

ID: AMZ10026ny
Latitude: 3.7891°
Longitude: 56.6349°

Yes, another great view of Luna 20 with a different MZ photo strip. This one is quite clear.

Great shot of Jules' crater below Luna 20.

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000255809.jpg)

Still looking for dark formations as a tell.

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000255179.jpg)

These dark formations are above Luna 20 and near left side of photo strip.
ID: AMZ100266z
Latitude: 3.4844°
Longitude: 56.6745°

I believe the photograph may be inverted as the bright crater is most likely the one Thing pointed out and another aspect of a previous photograph of a dark formation that may be Luna 18. This dark formation is better defined now. Others I pointed out in earlier photographs did not appear in this strip- or I just simply missed them  :)



: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Thomas J July 05, 2010, 10:04:31 AM
Nice work, Tom128.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Tom128 August 29, 2010, 04:27:55 AM
Revisiting Luna 18 targets again.  Luna 20 below.

(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000255790.jpg)

# ID: AMZ10026ny
# Latitude: 3.7891°
# Longitude: 56.6349°

http://www.moonzoo.org/examine/AMZ10026wg (http://www.moonzoo.org/examine/AMZ10026wg)

The NAC photo strip really is quite good.

http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc/view_lroc/LRO-L-LROC-2-EDR-V1.0/M111219210LE (http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc/view_lroc/LRO-L-LROC-2-EDR-V1.0/M111219210LE)

I grabbed some pictures of the possible crash sites we have been discussing off the strip and lightened them a bit to show better detail.

Jules' crater and possible impact site:

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/Tom128128/jules-crater.png)



Possible impact site or dark halo-like crater:

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/Tom128128/luna-bb.png)



Luna 20 again at same approximate altitude as the other targets.

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/Tom128128/luna20.png)



Very intriguing possible crash site below.  Looks like the item impacted showing some minor ejecta. From my understanding of Luna 18 it was on course for a controlled landing and not a planned maximum speed impact for seismic monitoring like the Apollo ascent stages.  So, its terminal impact velocity may have been significantly lower.  Maybe Thing or other forum members can shed more light on this topic.   

This is the same target Thing and I discussed earlier in this thread- http://www.moonzoo.org/examine/AMZ100266z (http://www.moonzoo.org/examine/AMZ100266z)  Photo in link is inverted from NAC strip and target is above and to right of fresh white crater.  Below is NAC photo strip grab.

(http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/Tom128128/luna-aa.png)

This last photo really may show Luna 18 below and to the right of the fresh white crater.  Looking forward to hearing a determination from the MZ team.  Please feel free to jump in with your comments pro and con as we are all learning together  :)
 
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Tom128 August 31, 2010, 03:17:08 AM
Thought it may be insightful to put Luna 20 and the possible Luna 18 photographs side by side for comparison.  I resized the Luna 18 crash site target by a factor of 2.  As speculated in the previous post, the photograph shows Luna 18 imbedded in the lunar regolith with possibly the ascent stage (still attached) being featured.  If my very rough calculations are correct, the separation distance between the two targets is under 2 NM.


Luna 20 (http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/Tom128128/luna20.png)

Luna 18 target  (http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/Tom128128/luna18x2.png)

 
 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Luna-16.jpg/375px-Luna-16.jpg)


Luna 18 sister ship of Luna 20
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: Thomas J August 31, 2010, 08:00:59 PM
Nice work, Tom, good to see a pic too.
: Re: Luna 20 & let's find the 18 together!!!
: JJ April 14, 2013, 03:00:23 AM
Oh my Gawwwwwddd, I searched for hours having this picture
(http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/uploads/LROCiotw/M119482862RE.L20M.ano.serendipityThumb.png)
to ensure myself that little black thing on left edge that I ignored several times  >:( >:( >:( actually IS Luna 20:
(http://moonzoo.s3.amazonaws.com/v10/slices/000172672.jpg)
ID: AMZ1001hp6
Latitude: 3.78897°
Longitude: 56.6256°
Sun Angle: -32.35°

Not impressive, but we now know that spacecraft can look like this too, especially on low contrast strips.

Now, I call everyone to find Luna 18!

It crashed only 1.3 km from the 20, but on LROC site they still not sure 'bout the coordinates. Lets together search some strips:
M104147428L
M108862844RE
M104147428LE


I found this which matches Things picture which isn't a ACT-REACT FIND
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/434015main_L20M-540.jpg)
it's identical and can be found here http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/lroc-20100316-luna.html